Timeline for A balanced banquet
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
22 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Apr 26, 2023 at 12:06 | comment | added | loopy walt | @ZizyArcher No, seven was the best I could find, too. thisIs4d says they have proof that seven is indeed the maximum, but they re too busy, apparently ;-) | |
| Apr 26, 2023 at 5:00 | comment | added | Zizy Archer | So, is the given 7 pieces the best solution you know or are there better? I managed more pieces on the board where teleporting king would gobble them all, but there was no path to eat them all (eg 8 is trivial, from the 7 each solution add knights to d5 and f5, bishop to a3 and replace f3 with rook. There are other quasi-solutions with even more pieces, but I didn't find anything connected) | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 14:26 | comment | added | loopy walt | @bobble Let me apologise for drawing you into this in the first place, it must be awkward having one's words pored over like this. That said please note that I did not make any claims re the meaning of "it" in this context. Suggesting otherwise is the kind of misdirection I find annoying. I decided not to contest it this time because I, too, don't enjoy protracted and ultimately pointless arguments. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 13:48 | comment | added | bobble | "It" in that comment meant "knowledge of the optimal solution", not "existence of an optimal solution". The latter is always required. Honestly, I would have close-voted the other, but I was loathe to get drawn into an extended argument where I got accused of fun-killing. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 6:53 | answer | added | Albert.Lang | timeline score: 10 | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 5:42 | comment | added | loopy walt | @Rubio yeah, let's leave it at that. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 5:38 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | @loopywalt I'm not sure why you seem to take such offense at my comments, or appear to assume bad faith on my part. The rule is what it is. It doesn't carve out exceptions for chess puzzles. Even if bobble thinks it should (which I, at least, don't think her comment meant), bobble's opinion isn't the deciding factor anyway. Between the policy meta post I cited up front, everything I and others added to the discussion there, and my comments here, I've now said all I'm going to. This isn't an attack on you; it was—and is—a cautionary note. If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't. 'Nuff said. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 5:30 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | @loopywalt bobble didn't ask "Is there an optimal solution?" bobble asked "Are you aware of an optimal solution to this?" You seem to be reading the "It" in "It's not strictly required" to be "A demonstrably optimal solution". I am reading it, as I noted previously, as "You knowing an optimal solution", as even if the OP doesn't know one but has good reason to think one exists, the chess-loving folks will probably find it if it can be found, so while OP knowing an optimal solution exists "would help", it may be fine—provided (as she goes on to explain) that things don't devolve to a game. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 5:03 | comment | added | loopy walt | @Rubio You are misquoting by omission, conveniently leaving out "It's not strictly required, especially for [chess] since there's a chess-loving lobby hereabouts :) but [...] it would help. The idea is to [...]". | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 4:20 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | @ApexPolenta As for your puzzle, I have the same concerns I had upon first impressions when seeing this one. Technically, any chess puzzle must have some optimal solution, but chess is a far cry from (say) a fully solved game like tic-tac-toe; it may well be that "an answer cannot meaningfully be expected to show reasoning as to why it is indeed THE best answer" due to the complexity of the game and the difficulty in finding and proving optimality of a specific solution. But if such solutions are not available, the only thing left may be the game-ish one-upping the rule seeks to avoid. Alas. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 4:07 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | @ApexPolenta I think there's no question the rule should be applied to both; that's ideally how rules work. I'm not saying either one should be closed, I was (as I said) just giving a reminder that optimization puzzles need to actually be optimizable to prevent open-ended puzzles where the whole thing turns into an never-ending game of answers upon answers one-upping each other — exactly "what [bobble] has actually written" and largely what I wrote too, insinuations to the contrary notwithstanding. If (as we're assured) THIS one is optimizable, all's well. | |
| Apr 11, 2023 at 2:26 | comment | added | ApexPolenta | @Rubio As the asker of the linked question, I think the same rule should be applied to this puzzle and mine (regardless of what the choice is). Both puzzles fall into a grey area that doesn't fit either of the characteristics you've described. To elaborate, an optimal answer must exist, as the chessboard is finite and can only fit so much material. However, this answer is very difficult to find, to the point where the puzzle may devolve into an open-ended competition. | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 20:09 | comment | added | loopy walt | C'mon, @Rubio, just take a step back and compare your interpretation with what she has actually written. They don't really match, do they? Anyway, as I said I do not only suspect there is an optimal solution, I know it for a fact. So I take it that is settled, then. | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 20:01 | comment | added | thisIs4d | @WeatherVane No, there cannot be 64 filled squares. Observe that if in $i^{th}$ move the white king captures piece $P_i$ and in $j^{th}$ move ($j>i$) king captures piece $P_j$, then initially, $P_j$ MUST not attack $P_i$, else $P_i$ cannot be captured by king in the first place since it was supported by $P_j$. If there were 64 filled squares, then $P_{63}$ will always "support" some earlier captured piece. So, this is not possible. Moreover, its not quite hard to see that there can be maximum 22 pieces initially. I believe this can be reduced to 16, but I don't have time now. Good Luck :) | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 19:55 | comment | added | loopy walt | @WeatherVane are you asking me to spoiler it already? I don't think I can. Maybe in a week or so. | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 19:40 | comment | added | Weather Vane | @loopywalt having fiddled with pencil and paper for quite some time in search of 6 of each, is there a trivially optimal solution using all 64 squares (21 of each dish)? | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 19:36 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | I read bobble's comment to mean it's ok if the asker doesn't know of an optimal answer, but is asking because they strongly suspect one to exist. Puzzles generally are designed to have a single correct solution which is recognizable as such. Open-ended questions conversely feel like a game where the object is to find an answer that beats the other answers in some score or metric, but there is no definitive solution that is provably THE best possible answer; the accepted answer is just "the best someone has come up with so far". The former is ok, the latter is not, tags notwithstanding. | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 19:04 | comment | added | loopy walt | I was led to believe that these are not rigorously enforced rules, especially in chess (see for example comments by not-exactly-firebrand bobble here: puzzling.stackexchange.com/q/120364/73836). If the optimization tag is what bothers you I'll be happy to lose it. Besides, an optimal solution trivially exists and proving optimality may be difficult but is certainly feasible (I do not understand the meaning of "meaningfully expect"). | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 17:36 | comment | added | Rubio♦ | We've seen several puzzles recently with a goal (roughly) of "find the best/most ...". As a reminder, this community decided to do away with open-ended puzzles. For an actual optimization problem, rather than a "best score wins" game, "answers should come with justification of why they are optimal; an answer without this is not a full answer." If an answer cannot meaningfully be expected to show reasoning as to why it is indeed THE best answer, the question is likely improper. | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 9:17 | history | became hot network question | |||
| Apr 9, 2023 at 6:19 | answer | added | Rewan Demontay | timeline score: 7 | |
| Apr 9, 2023 at 1:16 | history | asked | loopy walt | CC BY-SA 4.0 |